• Home
  • Music
    • AWS
    • AWS 2023-2024
    • AWS 1
    • AWS 2
    • AWS 3
    • AWS 1st 20 Years
    • WOA
    • SDOHS
    • Horn Performances 1
    • Horn Excerpts 2
    • Horn Solos 3
    • Horn Training 4
    • SCC Orch
    • IHS 2024-1
    • IHS 2024-2
    • Thunderbird Orch & Choir1
    • Thunderbird Orch & Choir2
    • Ensembles
    • Open Mic Night
  • TCA
  • Piano Third Syndrome
    • Piano Third Syndrome 1
    • Piano Third Syndrome 2
    • Piano Third Syndrome 3
  • Interests
    • Planes
    • Genealogy
    • Determination Now
    • British Museum
    • Tone Deaf Solutions
    • MV Info
    • Project Dunkirk
  • LDS Temples
    • LDS Temples 1
    • LDS Temples 2
  • More
    • Home
    • Music
      • AWS
      • AWS 2023-2024
      • AWS 1
      • AWS 2
      • AWS 3
      • AWS 1st 20 Years
      • WOA
      • SDOHS
      • Horn Performances 1
      • Horn Excerpts 2
      • Horn Solos 3
      • Horn Training 4
      • SCC Orch
      • IHS 2024-1
      • IHS 2024-2
      • Thunderbird Orch & Choir1
      • Thunderbird Orch & Choir2
      • Ensembles
      • Open Mic Night
    • TCA
    • Piano Third Syndrome
      • Piano Third Syndrome 1
      • Piano Third Syndrome 2
      • Piano Third Syndrome 3
    • Interests
      • Planes
      • Genealogy
      • Determination Now
      • British Museum
      • Tone Deaf Solutions
      • MV Info
      • Project Dunkirk
    • LDS Temples
      • LDS Temples 1
      • LDS Temples 2
  • Home
  • Music
    • AWS
    • AWS 2023-2024
    • AWS 1
    • AWS 2
    • AWS 3
    • AWS 1st 20 Years
    • WOA
    • SDOHS
    • Horn Performances 1
    • Horn Excerpts 2
    • Horn Solos 3
    • Horn Training 4
    • SCC Orch
    • IHS 2024-1
    • IHS 2024-2
    • Thunderbird Orch & Choir1
    • Thunderbird Orch & Choir2
    • Ensembles
    • Open Mic Night
  • TCA
  • Piano Third Syndrome
    • Piano Third Syndrome 1
    • Piano Third Syndrome 2
    • Piano Third Syndrome 3
  • Interests
    • Planes
    • Genealogy
    • Determination Now
    • British Museum
    • Tone Deaf Solutions
    • MV Info
    • Project Dunkirk
  • LDS Temples
    • LDS Temples 1
    • LDS Temples 2

Piano Third Syndrome

     

Tuning Overview - “Open Chords” & “Perfect Intervals”.

Thirds and 6ths need to be adjusted by the performer(s) to have no waves.  They should be “perfectly in tune” to the chord.

A perfect third is flat (as compared to a piano third) to be in tune compared to a piano third.  Piano thirds are extremely sharp with 7 vibrations a second.

Orchestras, choirs, and bands need to teach the performers to “listen" and adjust”.  To "listen and adjust" is essential while also phrasing using proper dynamics, tempo, and so many other things.  But visualizing the pitch is an important part of performing well.  

The human element is such an important part of this process. 

Electronic chromatic temperament orientated tuners help the performer get close to the right pitch.  But fine tuning is so important to make the waves smooth out.

Instrumentalists and vocalists are expected to "lock on" to what the group is doing, even if they have gone sharp or flat to the world pitch. Performers are expected to compensate and adjust to each other. It is common for flutes and clarinets (woodwinds) to "lock on" to the pitch and compensate. The same thing for strings and brass.

Fixed Pitch Percussion has a problem. The bells in the orchestra, band and choirs are "set".

They are tuned in the factory for chromatic “equal temperament” tuning.

This can be a major problem when the tubular bell is sounded while the musical group has gone sharp or flat.  

The same problem is prevalent with pianos, organs and harps. They are all tuned with a chromatic world standard temperament. And some musical organizations like to play sharp. This is a real problem.

This open and "in tune" sound with "pure" intervals sound amazing. And in a cathedral this is breathtaking. The Gregorian Chant in ancient days was performed in this fashion. It was "in tune" and glorious to hear. The smooth sounds in a performance hall (cathedral) that had over 6 seconds of echo made this sound "heavenly".
The next example shows this very sound with modern music performed "in tune" with an amazing "live" echo over over 6 seconds.

Pure Intervals in Choral & Instrumental Music - open chords

“Introduction”.

Piano Tuning Temperament "Piano Third" (and "Piano 6th) Explained

The C# in the video shown below is "detuned" for demonstration purposes. This demonstration major 3rd has no vibrations (beats per second) and is a pure major 3rd.

As other normal piano major 3rds are demonstrated it's difficult to hear on this recording. But if you listen to a "live" piano, all the major 3rds should have 7 beats per second. This is considered "in tune" in today's keyboards using equal chromatic temperament. This is also true to marimbas, xylophones and other percussion "tuned fixed" instruments.

It's called "equal temperament". Pianos are tuned "out of tune" on purpose so as to be able to play a keyboard in all keys, sounding relatively equal or even as you change keys signatures. And the world thinks this is the way all 3rds and 6th should sound on keyboards. Bach even insisted in playing in "all" of the keys on his harpsichord and called one of his books "The Well Tempered Clavier".

Because many of the key signatures that have many sharps and flats sounded so "out of tune" in Bach's day temperaments were being invented which eventually became to be known today as "equal temperament". But it took centuries to evolve. And some temperaments of ancient times were preferred over "equal temperament".

Ancient tunings were very different. French horns did not have valves and had to change notes with their hand position. Out of tune playing in historic times was common.

Claviers, harpsichords, & pianos (keyboards) were the worst offenders for out of tune playing. So compromises were made to make the harpsichord, organ, and all future keyboards to sound more even in any key. Some say this has ruined the different colors of tone for chords and sounds of keyboard performances.

To hear the problem see the video in another page "Reviving the Lost Sounds of Music". Some of these temperaments were common in ancient times. Composers of keyboards even composed music for different temperaments. The modern "equal temperament" is what we use today.

But equal temperament is a compromise and this "out of tune" formula should not be used by vocalists &/or instrumentalists. "Live" performers need to use their ear to compensate for each and every chord they play in an ensemble.

"Live" ensembles should not have "beats" on 3rds or 6ths like keyboards do. Keyboards are "fixed" and cannot compensate. Notes should be smooth as is the case with the videos at the bottom of this page.

Piano players may have developed "The Piano Third Syndrome" (PTS) when they play other instruments or sing in choirs. Piano players need to know that equal temperament sounds are incorrect for "live" vocal and instrumental performance.

This web page has been made to inform piano players, organists, and other "fixed keyboard" performers and the general music community of this syndrome.

You might have this syndrome.

After thousands of hours practicing the piano a piano player (maybe you) may have developed "perfect pitch" even if the piano is flat (Howard Hanson). This can be a problem. And the piano 3rd/6th vibrations (beats) may seem to the piano player the "right way" 3rds and 6th are supposed to sound.

When singing or playing music on a flute, clarinet, trumpet in an ensemble you might be confused how to tune up 3rds or 6ths. If you are compelled to "tune up" with 7 vibrations (beats) per second you have the "Piano Third Syndrome". Yes, it's possible that you have been convinced that the piano 3rds & 6ths are the way all chords are supposed to sound.

Some people are susceptible in retaining piano tonal memories. By knowing this phenomenon a person can learn to ignor the tendency to tune incorrectly and begin to "hollow out" the chords without vibrations (beats per second).

Remember, 3rds and 6ths are supposed to be "open" without vibrations (beats per second).

Piano players get used to this sound and think it sounds great.

But it's incorrect for the choral or instrumental musicians to try and duplicate this "sharp" or stretched major 3rd or 6th when playing in an ensemble.

Bands and Orchestras perform with harps, pianos, Xylophones, marimbas, and other "fixed keyboard" instruments and tuning can be very difficult, even for the top professionals in the recording studio.

Composers and arrangers that do not know that this problem exists will now understand the dilemma when some "fixed instruments" should not hold chords while the instrumentalists are trying to tune to them.

Band and orchestra directors might experiment with the marimba middle C and higher E to see if there are 7 vibrations per second when played together. A whole new world opens when these 2 notes are sounded.

What a tuning dilemma for the other musicians. Which note to tune to. Should the ensemble take the top note or the bottom note? Should everyone make the chord vibrate 7 beats per second? What is the answer?

A good composer or arranger doesn't let this happen if they know this dilemma exhists.

PTS Theorem #1: Pianos as out of tune on purpose.

The modern piano tuning is tuned so that all of the music sounds accurate in any key. This modern accuracy permits music in all the the key signatures and intervals to be in a modern temperament.

No key signature sounds different than another with this system. It is "equal".

Historically this was not the case for the harpsichords and organs.

Early temperaments were quite astonishing to the modern ear. The chords had different sounds and made smooth and other times harsh sounds that would offend many modern listeners. Some intervals would be smooth with no beats.

French Horns didn't have valves and had to use "crooks" and hand embellishments to change to the correct notes and keys for years. Valves were beginning to be manufactured for french horns in the mid 1800s.

Early music had a very open sound because the harpsichord was tuned to the key that was being played for the concert. Changing the key was almost impossible to have a nice open sound. Composers in early instrumental music used very few key signatures. Many sharps or flats made it difficult for the harpsichord to fit in with the instruments if the key signature was complicated.

This was the piano tuners paradise. Sometimes harpsichords were tuned at intermissions or between numbers to sound "open" and acceptable to elite music connoisseurs like Kings and Queens.

Bach was offended that composers were making their music in the "popular" keys so that the harpsichord would sound acceptable in a concert. So he made an attempt to make all of the keys available in his "Well Tempered Clavier". He composed in all of the keys. And I'm sure the tuning community and audiences were astonished at this brazen and brash idea.

Bach carried the day and eventually keyboard temperaments evolved into todays modern "equal temperament".

Overview of Piano Tuning with an A Tuning Fork
Most pianos are tuned using 523.3 C above middle C, not 440 A.

PTS#2: Pianos are not to be trusted for chord tuning.

The piano is tuned to one note. In many cases it's the 523.3 C above middle C.

Then the entire piano is tuned to that one note. The formula used is a well tempered temperament that makes all of the 4ths a bit stretched and the 5ths compressed.

To the normal musician this lack of precision is not heard. It is so slight it is not noticed. It almost creates a slow vibrato in the sound.

These imperfections are unacceptable in orchestras, choirs, bands, and other live performance groups in modern times.

Ancient tunings are hard to listen to in todays environment.

- - - Next Page - - -

Powered by

  • AWS